RIP 6R80

Boydie · Sat Apr 22, 2023 9:25 am

Well it had to happen eventually I guess, (144,800 kms) my gearbox has "died" and at the worst possible time, just on our way to the NT from our home in the NSW Blue Mountains. The start of what was to be a 5 month trip.
The symptoms were loss of traction, the gearbox and engine seemed to be disconnected from each other as no amount of throttle peddle pressure would increase acceleration and it only crawled up hills. Going up Mt. Victoria was a nightmare at down to at times below 10 kph but reversing into our driveway was easy, so reverse with the TC locked up obviously isnt a problem.

I suspect that the Torque Converter has self destructed. Hopefully the bits of it havn't affected the clutches.

So, I've contacted Wholesale Automatics to obtain (post haste) one of their billet Heavy Duty low lock-up Torque Converters and a Nomad Heavy Duty valve plate and I'll drop the box out starting tomorrow.

Sat Apr 22, 2023 2:10 pm

Claim from Fords as a known issue and the vehicle isn't fit for purpose
Many have before you
Beats me why some torque converters fail at 30k and some still going at 300k
My guess would be a remap and more torque than they can handle.

Lincolnland · Sat Apr 22, 2023 8:24 pm

Could it be the 1 million mods including bash plates bolted to bits that are questionable? Wondering the recent Chinese cooler may have contributed in some way? Wonder how a non modified equivalent would have held up? It's Big jod flushing the cooler and trans properly if it's full of metal. Had to do it over the Christmas break. TCE make a bullet proof convertor.

Boydie · Sun Apr 23, 2023 9:28 am

Lincolnland wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 8:24 pm Could it be the 1 million mods including bash plates bolted to bits that are questionable? Wondering the recent Chinese cooler may have contributed in some way? Wonder how a non modified equivalent would have held up? It's Big jod flushing the cooler and trans properly if it's full of metal. Had to do it over the Christmas break. TCE make a bullet proof convertor.

Seeing as my local Ford Dealership fits the same design and size aftermarket transmission cooler on new Rangers that will be used for heavy towing I dont think it has anything to do with the TC failing, it was just bad luck and poor timing - and seriously - saying that a bash plate could possibly affect a torque converter ? The odd thing was that Clancy Ford when they did a system diagnostics test could find no fault codes, even thiyfh the transmission was obviously "slipping" with very little forward drive, reverse wasnt an issue as selecting reverse locks up the TC. I've ordered a heavy duty low stall billet TC from Wholesale Automatics along with a Nomad heavy duty valve plate, flushing the clutches wont be too a hard task as 90% of any metal filings - if there are any - will be caught up in the filter or in the existing valve plate that will be returned as an exchange unit, so far there are none evident in the ATF that I've drained from the autobox sump but thanks for your consideration.

Lincolnland · Sun Apr 23, 2023 9:53 am

It's a bloody shame when things go bang! Is there any chance of warranty if it's a know fault? With such a heavily modified vehicle it might be a stretch but you don't know unless you ask the question? Diagnostics will be interesting, finding the actual cause. My trans (in another vehicle) had no forward drive whatsoever, but did have reverse. Was a fun time moving that car around until I sourced a new trans and convertor. Had to remove it and reinstall several times due to gremlins but now it's in and with twin pwr coolers and speedflow fittings it runs like a dream. I also run a thermo fan on each cooler.

Lincolnland · Sun Apr 23, 2023 9:54 am

BTW swapping trans in and out by yourself on your back on the dway absolutely sucks a fat one. Ensure you fill the convertor before you install it.

Sun Apr 23, 2023 10:14 am

Ford Warranty would be available but all genuine parts are used
I am in a fishing club so cars are used in sand a lot, fairly hard work
I know of 3 TC failures in Rangers, model irrelevant as all mechanically the same
One 2015 & two 2016 models well out of warranty
Ford replaced 2 but rejected 1
Two had receipts where the installation was done by a licensed mechanic/installer
The third did a self install so no warranty
There is no way an oil cooler would cause a TC to fail
A fluid leak would be discovered very early when you lose drive

Boydie · Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:55 am

Lincolnland wrote: ↑Sun Apr 23, 2023 9:53 am It's a bloody shame when things go bang! Is there any chance of warranty if it's a know fault? With such a heavily modified vehicle it might be a stretch but you don't know unless you ask the question? Diagnostics will be interesting, finding the actual cause. My trans (in another vehicle) had no forward drive whatsoever, but did have reverse. Was a fun time moving that car around until I sourced a new trans and convertor. Had to remove it and reinstall several times due to gremlins but now it's in and with twin pwr coolers and speedflow fittings it runs like a dream. I also run a thermo fan on each cooler.

As I said perviously, Clancy Ford in Bathurst did a full diagnostic check on all the control modules and could find no faults !!! The two techs who carried out the tests were somewhat bemused by this as the only "fault" was the low A/C pressure alarm that was due to the holed condenser that had occured some three weeks previous.
While the transmission cooler was installed in my driveway thats only because I dont have an undercover area, I have no garage just a small "man-shed" for my tools and yes, I filled the air cooled ATF cooler with 2 litres of ATF before I screwed on the final flow connection and made it tight. This install incidentally was carried out when I was replaceing the air conditioning condenser that had a hole in it caused by a nasty stick.
I ran the engine in "Park" for a good 10 minutes and then checked the ATF level and over 4-5 checks over a period of around 15 minutes it was about a half milimetre over the full mark on the little plastic dip stick.

From other conversations I have had it would appear that within the sealed TC is a one way clutch that somehow multiplies the fluid pressure against the driven turbine, it would seem that this clutch has ( possibly?? ) come adrift ( is it a common fault ?) or that more likely some of its blades have broken off. The result of this internal TC failure being a considerable loss of driven power - which is exactly what I experienced.
I have orderered a Wholesale Automatics Heavy Duty low stall TC and a Nomad Heavy duty Valve Plate and as soon as I take delivery of them I'll have them installed and we will hopefully be on our way.

As for warranty - possibly yes, I think that I would have a reasonable case for a warranty replacement as the failure is within a sealed and tamper-proof TC but Ford will only ( if at all ), replace it with a genuine like for like unit and do I want another Ford TC ??? I dont think so. I'll go for a better built billet TC unit with welded lugs holding it to the flex plate.

hbtranger · Mon Apr 24, 2023 9:58 am

I had solenoids go bad on mine that threw no codes. Had a 1-2 clunk so I bought a new set. When I tested the resistance on the bench, they were fine to the point where I nearly put them back in. But as soon as the new solenoids went in, the problems disappeared.

Point is - the diagnostics don't always point to a problem.

Boydie · Tue Apr 25, 2023 9:40 am

hbtranger wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 9:58 am I had solenoids go bad on mine that threw no codes. Had a 1-2 clunk so I bought a new set. When I tested the resistance on the bench, they were fine to the point where I nearly put them back in. But as soon as the new solenoids went in, the problems disappeared.

Point is - the diagnostics don't always point to a problem.

Yesterday I had a long conversation with Rodger, a senior tech at Wholesale Automatics and he was convinced that the problem wasnt with the 6R80 but was a communication issue between the TCM and the ECU so tomorrow at 6.30am it goes into APS Automatics in Richmond to be fully sorted. APS were recommended by WA.
You are very right about the diagnostics though. At the very worst I'm expecting to have to have to have the Lead Frame replaced - failures in them being a seemingly common issue - and if thats all I'm up for then as far as I'm concerned thats a good result and we will be on our way to the NT by next weekend.

Tue Apr 25, 2023 11:55 am

I suspected a software issue
When the torque converter fails there is absolutely no drive, forward or backward.

Boydie · Wed Apr 26, 2023 9:41 am

RossPat wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 11:55 am I suspected a software issue
When the torque converter fails there is absolutely no drive, forward or backward.

Both Wholesale Automatics and APS believe the glitch is in the ECU ( not in the TCM ) and it will only require a softwear update or minor rectification to correct it and that we should be back on our way to the NT by this weekend.
Happy days and lots or relief !!
I'll still be upgrading the TC and Valveplate in October though, and, if I can afford it, I'll even go for one of WA's "Extream" fully rebuilt 6R80 gearbox excange units that incorporate both their heavy duty low stall TC and the heavy duty Nomad valve plate as well as bigger clutch packs, but $10,000 supplied and installed is a big lump of money.
If however in August while we are minding Goolgardie Station north of Koolgardie in WA for the WA National Parks I am able to fully utilise my miners license and my metal detector and find a reasonable sized gold nugget it will definetly be on the cards !!

Boydie · Wed Apr 26, 2023 3:13 pm

Problem resolved !!!!

After test driving and causing my Ranger Wildtrak to lose power the techs at APS finally discovered the problem -- it was over heated fuel !!!

It would seem that four years ago when I had the Western Filters 35 micron pre-filter and catch can installed the fitters got the supply pipes from the filter to the Ford OE 5 micron filter crossed when they re-used the coloured "clip-on" connections effectivly connecting to the 5 micron OE fuel filter return spigot instead of the supply spigot.
Corrections have now been made, the fuel is nice and cool and the Wildtrak is running beautifully and we head off on Friday, a week later than planned but better than not at all.
I'm just amazed that it even worked

Lincolnland · Wed Apr 26, 2023 5:37 pm

Sounds dodgy...very dodgy

Wed Apr 26, 2023 8:31 pm

Boydie wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 3:13 pm Problem resolved !!!!

After test driving and causing my Ranger Wildtrak to lose power the techs at APS finally discovered the problem -- it was over heated fuel !!!

It would seem that four years ago when I had the Western Filters 35 micron pre-filter and catch can installed the fitters got the supply pipes from the filter to the Ford OE 5 micron filter crossed when they re-used the coloured "clip-on" connections effectivly connecting to the 5 micron OE fuel filter return spigot instead of the supply spigot.
Corrections have now been made, the fuel is nice and cool and the Wildtrak is running beautifully and we head off on Friday, a week later than planned but better than not at all.
I'm just amazed that it even worked

How long ago was it fitted?
If the connectors are crossed issues show up immediately, not weeks later.
Good that you have it sorted
That's the trouble with modern cars, just too complicated which leads to unreliability, not good miles from home.

Boydie · Thu Apr 27, 2023 8:16 am

RossPat wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 8:31 pm
Boydie wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 3:13 pm
How long ago was it fitted?
If the connectors are crossed issues show up immediately, not weeks later.

As I said, the 35 micron Western Filter was installed over 4 years ago along with the Provent 150 oil catch can !!
Like you I'm amazed that the injection system even worked.

It makes sense though as on our first trip up the Stuart two years ago in hot weather we had issues with occassional loss of power and the car going into limp mode with the dreaded orange spanner coming up on the dash screen but there were no codes though !
I do recall that the engine cooland and ATF were well within normal operating temperature ranges so it was very odd -- and on my recent trip to Innamincka in 42 degree ambients driving north on the Strez into a strong headwind I wasnt able to go above 80 kms without the engine shutting down, again the engine coolant and ATF temps were normal -- I never thought to think of high fuel temperatures. !!!

My engineering mind is working overtime here wondering if I can one day utilize the air conditioning condensate into some form of fuel cooler rather than all that ice cold water just draining away to waste !!

SeaJay · Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:13 pm

do you have a long range tank fitted? sometimes the fuel lines can get pinched under the tank and cause a restriction in flow to the filters, or in the return line

Boydie · Thu Aug 10, 2023 11:41 am

Lincolnland wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 8:24 pm Could it be the 1 million mods including bash plates bolted to bits that are questionable? Wondering the recent Chinese cooler may have contributed in some way? Wonder how a non modified equivalent would have held up? It's Big jod flushing the cooler and trans properly if it's full of metal. Had to do it over the Christmas break. TCE make a bullet proof convertor.

Can you supply me better contact details of "TCE" ?? - Wholesale Automatics are a total waste of time, they are quoting in excess of 10-14 weeks delivery from the date that they recieve a TC and valve plate from me that they will then modify.

"Million mods" ?? Here we seem to be going again. As I've said before the "bash-plate" on the transfer box that you questioned some time ago is a "skid plate" that is 50 mm higher up than the ARB under-body protection plates, after well over 155,000 kms of which at least 30% has been done off-road it hasnt got a single scratch on it so its never been in direct contact with the ground or any rocks.

The only other "mods" to the auto box has been the replacement of the OE steel shallow sump with a AFE deep finned alloy sump that holds an additional 6 litres of ATF and an after market Australian Made ( NOT Chinese !! ) ATF cooler to reduce the ATF temperatures while towing.

There are no "bits of metal" in the box, its clean, the filter was good enough to be reused ( itr won't be ) and the fluid was almost a clean as the day it went in and in any case I have obtained a low "milage" Wildtrak 2019 box off an insurance write off that has only done 40,000 kms as against my 155,00 kms, -- this is the box that will be installed in my Wildtrak.

Even so, I'd like to upgrade the TC and valve plate.

Boydie · Thu Aug 10, 2023 11:46 am

SeaJay wrote: ↑Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:13 pm do you have a long range tank fitted? sometimes the fuel lines can get pinched under the tank and cause a restriction in flow to the filters, or in the return line

That was the first thing that I looked at but as I said, we had travelled well over 6000 kms the year before and not one "Limp Mode" occurance even on the Great Central Road and the Gibb River all the way up to Honeymoon Bay and then down the Tanami from Halls Creek to Alice Springs so I dont think it was fuel starvation.
The more I think about it I'm trending to think that its a defective fuel temperature sensor